We are in the midst of a housing crisis. Today in Budget Estimates, Abigail grilled the Minister for Disability Inclusion on why NSW refuses to enforce the minimum accessibility standards under the National Construction Code for all new builds which would create more affordable, accessible housing for the aging and disability communities.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: ... New South Wales' failure to sign up to the minimum accessibility standards under the National Construction Code. As you know, New South Wales is only one of two States not to do that. If we had this bare minimum level of accessibility in all new builds, that would make a humungous difference to people. It's never been explained to me by your Government or the Government before why we can't do something so simple that the rest of the country can do and that would make such a significant difference. Why can't we implement that?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON (Minister for Disability Inclusion): I will say that we as a government are committed to ensuring that people with disability have greater access to homes that are safe, suitable and connected to community. In this budget we have made a significant investment of $5.1 billion into delivering 8,400 social homes—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: And I keep hearing that as a response to all of the things.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: If I can finish, we are responding in that way because it will be the greatest investment of accessible housing in this State's history—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Yes, if it happens that would be great.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: —because all of those houses will be at the silver standard.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But why not mandate it for all new builds when everyone else can—every other State can except us and WA? This is something not just for people with disability but for anyone who has a friend with disability, who wants them to be able to access their home. It's for anyone who wants to age in place. This will save the Government money in the long run. There is no doubt about that. Retrofitting is so much more expensive. Why? What is the hold up? Why won't New South Wales just say, "Of course we'll sign up to it like everyone else has"?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: As I said, all new social homes—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: No, not social homes. New builds across the board.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: But they're the ones the Government will be responsible for retrofitting. If they weren't—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But you have the power, like every other State does, to say, "All new builds have to have these minimum standards." Why?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: The other work that we are doing—and I've been having conversations with the planning Minister—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Minister, why?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: —and with the New South Wales architect about the pattern book program as well.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: With respect, you're not responding to my question. Why will New South Wales not sign up to the minimum accessibility standards that every other State except New South Wales and WA have signed up to? Why?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: And what we are doing is looking also—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Why? Give me a reason why we can't do it and everyone else can. What is wrong with New South Wales that we can't do it?
I just want to know why. It does my head in. I don't understand.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Your commentary around other States and Territories having signed up— the issue that we are seeing across those other States and Territories is the difficulty that they are having actually implementing it. We are in a housing crisis.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: At least they're trying.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Every government across the country is trying to work out and—no-one wants to be implementing any measures that are going to increase any cost of any housing whilst we are in a cost-of-living crisis. This is the difficulty—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But it doesn't. There's no evidence showing it does.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: —that all States and Territories, whether they've signed up or not, are having in terms of implementation.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: There is no evidence for that.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: What we want to be able to do is actually be able to implement anything that we are signing up to, and we are looking to see how other States and Territories are doing that.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Are you aware of any evidence at all that it will increase the cost of housing?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Absolutely.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Where's your evidence? Where is it? Where's the study?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Are you suggesting that changing or ensuring that there are silver standards in housing—if you're suggesting that that is not going to increase the cost of housing, I think that that isn't accurate.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I encourage you to go and look at what the Property Council or whoever has provided as any evidence to show that there will be any—the most I've ever heard, even from the industry, is that it would be a 1 per cent increase in housing cost.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Well, that's an increase in itself, but the industry—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But most of the evidence shows that there wouldn't be an increase because it gets built in as opposed to doing it retrospectively, which is incredibly expensive.
Later in the hearing, Abigail continued to question the Minister:
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Coming back to finish off on this National Construction Code, are you familiar with the Australian Building Codes Board?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Yes.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: This is a board which is an initiative of the States and Territories and the Federal Government, and it's comprised of representatives from all of the different governments across Australia as well as industry and others. They, as of April this year, estimate that the cost of implementing minimal accessible standards, depending on the type of dwelling, is between $2,900 and $4,400. They say that if you are instead to retrofit to meet those standards, you are looking at anywhere between, I think, they say around $27,500—but it could be as high as 22 times that much. Given that they are the amounts we are talking about here, why won't the New South Wales Government implement the mandatory requirements for minimal accessibility?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: The issue is something that we are still considering, and I'm working closely with the Minister responsible, which is Minister Anoulack Chanthivong, alongside Minister Rose Jackson and myself. The conversations are continuing when it comes to the NCC, and the silver standards. The costs that you've just outlined show that there is an additional cost that comes with building to accessible standards—albeit obviously less than a retrofit—which is why we have the $5.1 billion investment in social housing, which is the largest investment in accessible housing in our State.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: That doesn't answer the question, though. That is just another thing that is happening.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: So when we come to the cost of retrofitting, it won't be the Government that is paying for the retrofit, because our social housing will be at the silver standard already.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: You mentioned before that perhaps part of the reluctance is to do with the housing affordability crisis, and not wanting to impose additional costs on new houses. Is that correct?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: Absolutely. Improving and increasing housing across our State is a clear priority of our Government, and anything that puts additional costs on the way we deliver houses is an issue.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: So when you are thinking about the new buyer of a house who wants to come along and have a house that's affordable, are you only thinking of the people without disability? Or are you also thinking about the people who then have to add on an additional $30,000, or even more, to retrofit a house to become acceptable for them?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: We are looking at everything we can do to ensure the rights of people with disability are realised in this State...
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But this isn't new. We've had this in the construction code now as something to be accepted for four or five years. It's just that New South Wales hasn't got up to speed with that because the previous Government was very concerned about the impact on the property industry and what the property industry was saying. But now that you know that what the property industry is saying about the cost is not correct and that we're looking at an additional 4,000, why wouldn't you implement the minimum accessibility standards with a lead time to allow people—you could even exempt if you've already got a plan. But they're able to do this in the ACT, Victoria and Queensland. Why are developers struggling so much in New South Wales?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: As you said, the former Government did not sign up the State to the NCC silver standard...
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: This isn't a new issue. In Opposition, Labor was also opposed to implementing the National Construction Code because it didn't want to upset the developers either. We're talking about accessible, affordable housing for the huge percentage of people with mobility issues and people who are going to age in place. All you need to do—it doesn't cost the Government anything—is pass a law that implements the National Construction Code. People have been asking for it for so long. I don't understand. I'm honestly asking you to tell me the real, genuine reason why you will not implement the minimum accessibility standards for new
housing in this State?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: I have been really clear that we put people with disability first and their access to housing is an issue that is ongoing and the discussions are ongoing.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: How does that statement vibe with—
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: There is no way that the suggestion that you are making—that we are putting developers or the building industry first—is the case. What we are wary of and what we are weighing up is the issue that does involve, invariably, additional cost of housing when we are in a housing crisis.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: For people with disability—why don't they matter when you are talking about affordable housing? Why are we only ever talking about able-bodied people when we are talking about affordable housing? It's got to be affordable for everybody except people with disability. For them, we don't care. They can spend an extra $30,000 retrofitting a place.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: As I have already said earlier today, we're also having really good conversations with the planning Minister around the program involving the Government Architect NSW and the pattern book competition and program that is also going to see—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But that's not the same thing. This is an indefensible position, isn't it, Minister? It is indefensible to say on the one hand that you care about people with disability and on the other hand not make this very, very simple change that the rest of Australia has made except for New South Wales and WA.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: In a housing crisis, putting additional cost onto that at this point means that these decisions have to be made very carefully. We are continuing to have the conversations with my other colleagues, with people with disability and with the industry about how we can best deliver more accessible housing for people with disability in this State.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But I think that's the key here, right? You know very clearly that people are asking for this, that stakeholders are asking for it, that it's doable and that it's been done in other jurisdictions. But what you are saying to me, I believe—and correct me if I'm wrong—is that the consultation is into how you do it. If you were to give the community your guarantee that you will be implementing them but there will be a staged implementation because you need to look at things, that would be very different to just saying, "Oh, no, we're not doing it right now. We're considering it." Would you do the former? Would you say, "We're going to do this"?
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: What I'm saying clearly is that we are considering it. But I'm also saying that we are making the biggest investment in accessible housing that this State has ever seen.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: That is all forward looking, but today—
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: That is something that our Government is very proud of—a $5.1 billion investment.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I know, and it keeps rolling it out as an excuse for not doing all the other things we require. If you're looking at a person with disability today who is looking to the Labor Government and saying, "I really want to buy a house but I can hardly find any that are actually accessible, and if I do find one I have to pay $30,000 plus to retrofit it", what are you saying to those people about what the New South Wales Government thinks about people with disability.
Ms KATE WASHINGTON: People with disability—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: It's indefensible, isn't it?
The Hon. GREG DONNELLY: Point of order. Ms Boyd just jumped straight on the Minister, who got barely two words out of her mouth, by saying "indefensible". That is not providing sufficient opportunity for the Minister to answer the question. You might not like the answer you are getting—
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I don't think anyone likes the answer, Mr Donnelly.
The Hon. GREG DONNELLY: You're lecturing the Minister.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Someone has to.
The Hon. GREG DONNELLY: You're entitled to ask the question—this is budget estimates—and receive an answer. This is not an opportunity for The Greens to grandstand.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: No, it's an opportunity for people with disability to be represented for once.
3 September 2024