Today, in Budget Estimates, Abigail asked the Department of Education what they are proactively doing to upgrade NSW schools to be fully accessible.
The CHAIR (Abigail Boyd): What is the proactive upgrading to make all of our schools accessible? Is there a plan for that or is there still so much of a backlog in the system that we haven't got to that point?
LISA HARRINGTON (Deputy Secretary, School Infrastructure at NSW Department of Education): It's hard to know exactly what each child is going to need from an accessibility point of view. Even if we had all the money in the world, we would want to make sure that we are dealing with it case by case to make sure that we are dealing with the particular requirements of each student. I would say that in many of the schools over the years, lifts have been installed and ramps have been installed to cater for kids over time. It's not a case of there being a backlog that is stopping children from being able to access education. Case by case, in some ways, does suit the fact that we need to make sure that each student and their particular needs are catered for.
The CHAIR: I understand that there's a range of different needs for people with disability, particularly people with invisible disability as opposed to physical disability. I understand that there are a lot of needs, but you would think that we would be getting to the point where, from a mobility perspective, we can at least access all of the rooms. How far away are we from—
MURAT DIZDAR (Secretary of the NSW Department of Education): I think you're spot-on. If any child is going to come in with an adjustment need, we've got to meet that need. Where you go to is can you make sure your entire footprint can meet a point of need?
It is a large footprint. It's close to 10,000 hectares across 2,200 sites. Whenever we're going to do an upgrade, we make sure that, while we're at it, we can look at what the accessibility features of a school look like. I gave an earlier reference of Mosman High. It has got buildings that are 140 years old against a brand-new wing that is one year old... We do look at taking advantage of natural things that we've got in play so that we can get value for money, but we do have a long way to go because it's a very large footprint. It requires strong investment over time.
The CHAIR: And times have changed. I'm not expecting that back in 1960 all of the new buildings were fully accessible.
In terms of the new builds, are they 100 per cent accessible now?
MURAT DIZDAR: They have got that requirement. All of the design and the build has to make sure they meet that requirement. You can't get sign-off for build unless that's the case.
The CHAIR: I'm not saying it's not a big task. I'm just wondering if there's a plan.
MURAT DIZDAR: Anytime we're doing an upgrade, anytime we're doing maintenance work—whether that's reactive or planned—I have got to give real credit to the asset services officers on the ground who are looking to then take advantage of those builds or work to improve the accessibility of a school. The other part that I'm a little bit proud of that I'm seeing come through in my career is meeting that child's needs years before they get there. We're becoming a little bit stronger in transition. If we know from preschool to kindergarten that we're going to get a child with X, Y and Z adjustment needs, making sure we can factor that in before they get there is really
important. That goes to the value and sense of belonging and embracing. Sometimes, given the mobility and nature of our schools, we don't know until they arrive, and then we've got to put our skates on through infrastructure and make sure we can meet that requirement.
The CHAIR: That's right. We want this level of accessibility to become the norm and not just saying, "There's a person coming. We have to suddenly change the school around."
MURAT DIZDAR: The other part where I concur with you wholeheartedly that you mentioned earlier is around our staff. It's not just our students; it's around our staff and their accessibility.
The CHAIR: And carers and grandparents.
MURAT DIZDAR: Exactly.
The CHAIR: A similar process began in the area of transport back in the early 2000s, when we had all of the States and Territories sign up to make transport across the board fully accessible within 20 years. They have missed that deadline, but there has been some progress towards it.
One of the frustrations I had with the previous Government was that, as far back as 2019, they still couldn't tell me what was left to be done in terms of knowing what was accessible and what wasn't. Does the Department of Education have an idea as to what is already fully accessible and where that work needs to be done in the future?
MURAT DIZDAR: I think we're improving in this area too. Why I know that to be the case is that when Ms Summerhayes and I were principals, we had an asset service officer for 40 schools. We were lucky to see them once a year. Our asset service officers do a huge job,
and we've given them a ratio of one to 10 schools. They are in and out of those schools on a regular basis. They're the ones that are keeping us updated on what that school need is, where the facilities lie and what condition they're in. That goes to things like accessibility.
The CHAIR: Is there a central repository?
LISA HARRINGTON: We can come back on notice. But I do know that the majority of our buildings were constructed prior to the Disability Act, so it is a big task to go and rectify all.
The CHAIR: I do appreciate it's a big task. I just would like to think that we've begun an audit to go, "This is what it would take", rather than just letting things flow until we do get, hopefully, one day, that requirement that everything be made accessible. That's incredibly helpful. Can we do some basic questions around numbers of children with disability in mainstream schools? Are you able to tell me how many have separate support units or come back with the data on that in terms of how many of our schools have separate support units
and how many there are?
MURAT DIZDAR: ... One in four of our children in our care in public education have an adjustment or adjustments or require adjustment or adjustments for disability.
MARTIN GRAHAM (Acting Deputy Secretary, NSW Department of Education): We have just over 4,500 support classes. That includes in our SSPs and in mainstream schools. We can come back to you with how many schools those 4,500 are across.
The CHAIR: Do you have any visibility over how many students with disability are being home schooled?
PAUL MARTIN (CEO, NESA): No, I don't have those figures.
The CHAIR: It's something that we just don't capture. That's right, isn't it?
PAUL MARTIN: The application form for home schooling doesn't require parents or carers to indicate their reasons. It's a voluntary section of the application form. We have a proportion of people who fill out that that indicated that the reason they are moving their child or choosing home schooling is because of disability. But in terms of the actual numbers of students with disability who are home schooled, no, I don't have that data.
Since it has been a voluntary field, I think about 80 per cent of parents or carers are filling something out. I can get the proportion of those that indicate that it's because of special needs.
The CHAIR: That would be really useful. I understand—well, I know, because I get a lot of constituents coming to my office and asking me to try and help them. For people whose children have been excluded or expelled from schools or there has been an incident of restrictive practices or something along those lines where they have basically come to the Department and tried to get some sort of
rectification for that situation, how many of those result in legal action?
MURAT DIZDAR: I wouldn't have the data to my fingertips. But I was looking at expulsion rates in the system recently because I wanted to look at the time when some of us around the table were principals. There has been a significant decline in expulsion rates in the system. That goes to what I believe to be the great work that our schools do in making sure they can meet the needs of students. Sometimes there is system support around what the best wraparound support looks like.
But I'm ashamed to say that, when we were principals, expulsions were more common. It's a pleasing trend to see those decline. Even if we enact an expulsion, we have to work with that family and that student at system level to look for ongoing education provision. It may be that we determine that it's no longer fit at that setting but we certainly don't cut them adrift and say, "Find your own way here." We have to work with that family to look for an alternative provision. That may be a neighbouring school, or it may be a specialist setting that may be required, or it might be a support class setting that is required.
27 August 2024