Today in Budget Estimates, Abigail advocated for greater transparency on unidentifiable lobbyists with unrestricted access to Parliamentary offices and more comprehensive Ministerial diary disclosures.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: There was an article in The Sydney Morning Herald the other day about how ICAC had written to the Premier asking about what was being done to implement the recommendations of a prior report that the Labor Government had agreed to implement, and still hasn't. What is the current state of reforms around lobbying?
KATE BOYD (Secretary of The Cabinet Office): Operation Eclipse, I believe, is the report that you're referring to. I think that was delivered by the ICAC back in 2021. The then Government received it and put out a response saying that they would support it and consider implementation. That process is ongoing with the new Government as well, who has also expressed support in principle for the integrity reform in the lobbying space. But the detail is very fraught.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I understand it's not your decision to make, but it would seem to me that there are elements of that report and those recommendations that are pretty easy to implement. I understand the previous Government didn't want to do this either. Do we have any timeline for when the current Government is going to roll out changes?
KATE BOYD: All I can say is that it's ongoing, and we continue to provide advice on the options for implementation.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: When it comes to lobbyist passes—this is something I've raised before in these estimates, where lobbyists are given security passes. They can walk around this Parliament. I've had them come into my office when the door's unlocked to say hi. I'm like, "How did you get in here?" When you go to find out who's a lobbyist and who's got a pass and who has sponsored that pass, that information is not available even for members. A very basic thing would be to at least require those lobbyists to have a different coloured pass to, for example, the special constables, which currently have the same coloured pass. Are those sorts of things being dealt with or are they purely within the realm of the President and the Speaker?
KATE BOYD: I would say so. I would definitely suggest that that sort of submission be made to the Speaker and the President and that we don't have any policies or other control over the security passes to access the parliamentary precinct.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Sure, but I'd rather they turn up to the reception like every other guest that I have, and then there's a record of them being here, and they don't just walk the halls with access to any MP that they like. From a Premier's perspective, and a Premier's Department and Cabinet Office perspective, are there any guidelines that could be issued right now that actually put in place something saying, "If you're to meet with a lobbyist, they can't just have a pass. They need to actually have registered with the front desk"? Presumably that is within the capacity of the Premier to do.
KATE BOYD: I'm not sure that the Premier could.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: But the Premier could set a standard here and actually say, "Well, at least for Ministers, we're going to make sure that any lobbyist that come to see us, it's going to be completely transparent and they'll come through and actually register at the front desk like everyone else"?
KATE BOYD: I think it would be open to all parties to take voluntary steps if they wish to do that.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Sure, but the Premier has that capacity over Ministers to issue that direction?
KATE BOYD: Potentially, yes.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Okay. I understand what you're saying about the passes. In terms of, then... a ministerial diaries perspective, I've spent the last week going through most Ministers' diaries and it's pretty patchy... For example, sometimes there are company names that are just abbreviated to two initials that could wherever refer to 200 company names. Where's the accountability for those disclosures?
KATE BOYD: I would say the Ministers are accountable for compliance with that memo. If you have concerns about the quality of disclosures, it would be open to you to raise those with the Minister.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Is there consequence?
KATE BOYD: The Premier's memos are binding, and I think all Ministers are expected to comply with them.
Later in the day, Abigail questioned ICAC's Chief Commissioner on these issues:
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: If I could go back to Operation Eclipse with you, Chief Commissioner, I asked questions at the last estimates about lobbyists and passes, in particular. I want to be clear about what I meant. Being an MP in this building, we see a lot of things. During a sitting week, we have Ministers who are here in the building on floors that anyone can access through stairs, and then we have a bunch of people who just have a permanent pass that they can use to come in whenever they like because they've got sponsored from somebody
and we don't know; there's no transparency over that.
JOHN HATZISTERGOS (Chief Commissioner of NSW ICAC): I've got one too.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Right. Whether it's unions or peak bodies or lobbyists or whatever, they walk around with these black passes and go into people's offices and say hi. Firstly, would you expect that to be a bit more transparent? Secondly, should Ministers really be putting down those interactions they have in the hallways and those casual interactions with lobbyists into their ministerial diaries?
JOHN HATZISTERGOS: The issue of passes has been raised with me previously. It's not an issue which has been the focus of any of our attention, so I can't really comment to you in terms of the corruption risk.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: When we look at the recommendations in project Eclipse, then, when we talk about there being insufficient transparency around when these meetings are being held—
JOHN HATZISTERGOS: Eclipse does deal with a broadening of the kind of interactions which should be disclosed and the persons who are described as lobbyists, who should be identified. We haven't got a response to that. You can read the report for yourself—I'm sure you have—if you've got any doubts about any of that.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Yes.
JOHN HATZISTERGOS: The problem at the moment is that we have these diary disclosures, but I have to be perfectly frank—and I say this both in respect of the current Government and the previous Government— they're suboptimal. When you have a description of the purpose of the meeting as "portfolio matters", it really doesn't tell me anything when the description is "purpose of the meeting"
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: No, exactly, and that's the norm.
JOHN HATZISTERGOS: I think this needs to be dealt with. The object of the disclosure regime should be, together with a documentation regime of the interaction, to enable a party to be able, if necessary, to go and make an application under the GIPA legislation and get access to the particular record.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I was looking at the Premier's diary for these estimates, and everything was either "lunch" or "meet and greet" or something of that nature, which tells me absolutely nothing.
JOHN HATZISTERGOS: It tells you very little, if anything. Some of them, if it's—I suppose if you're meeting a consul-general and it has nothing to do with your portfolio, describing it as "meet and greet" might be sufficient, but in other circumstances clearly not so. This is an issue that we've dealt with in our report... It's really a matter for government to respond to it.
28 August 2024