Today in Budget Estimates, Abigail confronted the Minister for the Prevention of Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault about the extraordinary gaps in NSW policing of domestic violence within NSW Police's own ranks.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: One of the other issues I think we discussed last time was in relation to what I would call the stubbornness of the Police Force in not implementing the recommendations of the Auditor-General in the Audit Office's report into police responses to domestic and family violence and also the LECC recommendations when it comes to police being able to investigate people from the same command when it comes to domestic and family violence incidents. At the moment we have a situation where, basically, the station command or the command sergeant—I always forget the terminology—has the discretion to say, "That involves one of our officers. We'll get a different command to investigate it." But it's not mandatory, and so one of the recommendations from both the LECC and the Auditor-General was that it should be a mandatory thing. Again, there has been no movement in relation to that. Have you been advocating for the police Minister to require that to happen?
Ms JODIE HARRISON (Minister for Women, Minister for Seniors, and Minister for the Prevention of Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault): I've been talking with the police Minister on a huge range of matters in relation to domestic and family violence. I've been out to the domestic and family violence registry a couple of times. I think the work that they are doing, while I don't have an intimate knowledge of what they are doing and will be doing, will go a long way to overcoming—will go some way, rather, to overcoming some of the issues that have been raised by both of those reports.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: This one is pretty extraordinary, I think, in terms of would it pass the pub test? When I tell friends that aren't involved in politics that if you are being abused by a person who happens to be a police officer, you are not guaranteed that their mates won't investigate them if you complain about them, that is a pretty extraordinary thing for most people to grasp. Do you think it's appropriate that victims approaching the police for help have to basically take it on faith that the person in charge of that command may, in those circumstances, transfer it to someone else for investigation—but maybe they won't? That would really impact on whether or not you would actually try to get the police's help in the first place if you were being abused, don't you
think?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: Yes. I think it's incredibly important that any police investigation is thorough and done professionally. Whether or not the complainant is a police officer or whether it's a member of the community, everybody expects our police to be dealing with complaints made to them professionally and thoroughly. I do think having the domestic and family violence registry having oversight of the issues in relation to domestic and family violence across the Police Force will be helpful. There is a lot of work being done. I've got to say that I think the Police Force has become more open to working with people and organisations outside of their own expertise in recent times. I think that's a really good thing.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I do too. I think it is still extraordinary, though, that they're not taking what both the LECC and the Auditor-General, who are independent organisations, who have been put in these very important roles in our democracy to hold people to account—they have made a very clear recommendation, both of them, that police should not investigate each other when it comes to claims of domestic and family violence. And yet
the Police Force is stubbornly saying, "We're going to just keep doing what we do because we know better." How is the public to have faith in the police when that is the response?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: My understanding is that there is ongoing work to work through, particularly the LECC report.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: One of the other issues that I keep raising with the police Minister is in relation to the numbers of currently serving police officers who have been convicted of a domestic and family violence offence. There are a huge number who have been charged with domestic and family violence offences. There are a number who have then been found guilty, but no conviction because of their standing as a police officer or whatever. And then there are those police officers who have been convicted and continue to keep their jobs. Given the Police Force is supposed to be in our society on the front line of dealing with domestic and family violence incidents, do you think it is appropriate that we continue to have tolerance for officers who are also committing that offence?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: I think perpetrators of domestic violence—people who use domestic violence in relationships—should be held to account. I talk about perpetrators being held to account. I talk about perpetrators being held accountable, and police are no different.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: When I asked the other day, 54 currently serving police officers had been charged with 91 domestic violence related offences. Two currently serving police officers had been convicted of domestic and family violence offences. It was taken on notice how many are guilty without a conviction recorded, but as at 6 March we had 11 found guilty without a conviction recorded and they're all still working in the force. Given the need to restore confidence in the police's ability to deal with domestic and family violence, do you think we should be adopting a zero-tolerance approach to people who have themselves been found to have committed a domestic and family violence offence being in the police?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: I think there are certain requirements to being a police officer. I think all police should have to adhere to those requirements, including whether they have criminal convictions.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: Exactly. But you don't think that there is a perception problem if we have—it's not without context. We have police sitting there with convictions and we have police being able to investigate each other for these offences? Do you think we need to shake that up so that, from a victim-survivor's perspective, they can walk into a station and think that they're going to be dealt with in the appropriate manner?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: I do think it needs to be shaken up. The LECC report clearly said it needed to be shaken up. I honestly do believe that the police Minister and the police commissioner are working through shaking that up.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: I asked for current numbers at the police estimates as well, and I'm waiting to get back the details on notice, but as at the last estimates on 5 March 2024 we had 18 currently serving police officers who had been charged with 39 offences relating to sexual violence. These are not the ones who are found guilty of domestic and family violence; we're talking now just about sexual violence offences in isolation. There were 18 currently serving police officers as at 5 March. I understand five of them have now been let go. I don't know, because I don't have the numbers to compare it to exactly yet, but as at that 5 March number, of those 18 currently serving police officers with 39 offences, two of the charges were of sex with a person under 10—still serving in the police force—and five of the charges were of sexual offences with children between 10 and 16. I don't understand how you can be charged with an offence—a sexual offence with a child—and still get to sit in the Police Force. Do you think that is appropriate?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: I think sexual offences are absolutely abhorrent, obviously. I think the police in New South Wales should be above reproach.
Ms ABIGAIL BOYD: You can understand how people are not very trusting to come forward. It's another one of those issues where victims of sexual violence find it incredibly difficult to disclose in the first place, and if you don't have a guarantee that the person behind the desk isn't also being charged with an offence, that's an added obstacle. Do you think we should have a zero-tolerance approach to police that have been charged with a child sex offence, at least, even if we don't get to the adult sex offences?
Ms JODIE HARRISON: I honestly believe that every single one of our police officers should be above reproach.
Read the full transcript here.
11 September 2024